"Ooo in a 90's kinda world..." lol. Nah, but between yesterday evening and this morning, I got this news emailed or told to me by about 4 different women. But none of them bothered to tell me why it was important. So, I'm askin, what does it mean? Oh yeah, another statistic that popped up in many of the articles -- just 30% of black women get married.
But love-lovers, worry not! The MSNBC article throws this in at the end: "And they are looking for love — just on their terms. 'What is it they say?' asks [Sandi] Gordon. 'You can't live with them, you can't live without them?... definitely, men won't go out of style."
Wednesday, January 17, 2007
51% of U.S. women "living single."
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I would be willing to guess that all if not most of the 4 women who brought it up to you were Black women. The reason I think this is that Black women (well, my friends and I) feel it is extremely important because this amount of living single is not what Black women want. So to see that all women are living single longer and that (sigh) only 30% of Black women are getting married is scary to us. Children are still a part of most women's plan, and so not far from that plan is a man that they hope to love and have that family with. Black women . . . we are terrified of being unloved and/ or alone. But we are strong and prepared for it.
So I'm guessing that these women read this and brought it up to any Black man they were close enough to discuss it with. Really they (we ) probably want to know how you feel about that. Are those statistics okay with you (with Black men)?
I'm not alright with the numbers. But I'm not really sure if I can do anymore than I already do.
I treat the women in my life with the utmost respect. I encourage my friends, family and those who I come into contact with to do the same.
Maybe I can do more than that but I'm not sure.
Traditional marriage is a myth. The toll on women to maintain a traditional marriage is far greater than it is for men. I believe that we are brainwashed by those that own and control this society through TV and other news media, which they also control. The expectation of traditional marriage is a message that young men and women get in church, school, and elsewhere. It is detrimental to women because it tells her that she has to find a man to achieve her dreams in life – that of having a family. But it is even more detrimental to young men, especially young black men. Black men already have no where to belong and a much greater challenge to achieving a reasonable standard of living to fulfill this myth. They are already insecure about their ability to compete in a world that favors whites. When that insecurity meets the confusion and pain of a relationship gone bad, they reach back into the bag of myths that they have been fed on since birth. They feel that their manhood is at stake (they have little else). They try to be “real men,” which of course means to be in control and not dominated or whooped by a women. Before you know it verbal or physical abuse is the result.
Women who grew up watching domestic abuse long ago vowed not to be that victim. They are reluctant to marry, which means placing their life and well being in a man’s hands. They have seen that go bad often enough. Besides life offers other successes which almost make up for the pain of having no family of ones own. I can understand this phenomena, and believe that if we don’t stop worshiping patriarchy and the nuclear family as the chosen lifestyle to strive for, this phenomena will get worse.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/01/21/amber.alert/index.html?eref=rss_topstories
Too many stories like this make women feel better off alone.
I am responding to Anonymous’. If we as a society want to believe that patriarchic nuclear families are the proper way to live than we owe it to all to have a living wage for families, and supports like affordable childcare and health care. Domestic violence is not always about a monster but about the rage at being cast that way because you were born poor and are uneducated. This does not mean that you love your family less. But it does mean that you have very little control over your life. Yes, domestic violence happens to all classes of people. This also results from patriarchic beliefs that the man must be in control and everything must be handled within the nuclear unit. This puts an extraordinary burden on that nuclear unit. Extended families and multi generational support would help the whole situation. But the government works to make the exact opposite happen. A young woman who gives birth is instantly considered a family unit. Further she forgoes assistance if she openly involves the man in the family unit. What must this do to a young man who does not have the means to support his women and child. He is now reduced to sneaking around keeping a low profile and few clothes in the house. The young woman owns everything, the apartment, the name on the mailbox the food stamps, the check. What does that do to his view of himself as measured against the patriarchic image of what a real man should be? Now add to the mix that the assistance this couple is getting is totally inadequate to support any kind of life style at all. He begins to feel whooped when he has to discuss every penny spent with his women and ask for even the simplest things. No surprise that he begins to feel very frustrated and reacts with rage.
Instead of dismissing marriage as a "myth" let's talk about why women feel pressured.
Who is worshiping "patriarchy and the nuclear family as the chosen lifestyle to strive for"???
This sounds like an emotional rant with little relevance to the reality of majority of black women in America.
The majority of black women WANT to get married. Don't try and act like that ain't true.
It might not be true for white women in society, but black women have different circumstances that when included in these types of studies would yield more telling statistics instead of lumping all women together.
White women might be choosing to be single, but Black women feel pressured because there are not enough black men in American society.
Why are there not enough black man in American society?
Mainly because of the injustices occurring in the American criminal justice system... mandatory minimum sentencing, unequal drug sentencing laws... a belief that locking more black men up is better for society than healing black men.
Let's not turn this into a feminist rant on patriarchy.
While that is a very very important issue, the most immediate and tangible issue and challenge is to address this racist criminal justice system.
Marriage is good for soceity. It might not need to be "traditional" whatever that means.
But men making commitments to women and vice versa, is a positive thing for society.
Ultimately people should be able to choose. And choice leaves room for no one to feel pressured.
So the real source of pressure is the fact that there is a lack of black men in our society.
I went to Howard and the Howard reality is sort of a warped one that doesn't reflect the majority of black reality.
We ought to realize that Howard and HBCU black women often get to be more "human" (which in this society means more white) and often fall under the spell of thinking there are plenty of black men out there and that they have time to wait.
Meanwhile, most black women in this country want a black man to start a family with and actively pursue one. Unfortunately there is a deficit in the supply because too many of those black men are in "legal slavery" in prisons across the country.
All of the points made on this issue are valid. But I just want to point out that a major reason Black women are living single at such a high rate is that Black men are being incarcerated at high rates. The criminal justice system is at the heart of this in my opinion, even more than any patriarchal social issues. The criminal justice system is at the heart of this, right there with the US welfare system.
Staggering fact: 51% of Black men who get HIV in the US get it from male-to-male sexual contact. I feel confident a generous amount of this male-to-male sexual contact happens in prison with men who are heterosexual in their "outside" lives. The proof is: 78% of Black women get HIV from heterosexual sexual contact. The men are returning to their women once they leave prison. The criminal justice system is not only removing men from their families and communities, but returning them years later, emotionally and physically changed.
Black women are paying a high price. Our husbands, our fathers, and our sons are being eaten by a monster. And that monster is not patriarchy. It's the US criminal justice system.
I am a black woman. I want to be married and have children and have a great extended family/community in which to rear my children and grow my relationship with my husband ( and the people with us). Sometimes I do feel that if I, as black woman, am to get married that the man will not be from this country or not of my same subculture of blackness....that saddens me and the reasons that have been pointed out make it an unfortunate possiblity. Then there are times when I do feel that there will be opportunities for me to meet a black man reared in the US with similiar cultural understandings ( not a total neccessity but something I would like) and that the same is true for my friends. I cant say that I go around everyday wishing to meet this man or men who could fill that role nor do I constantly lament the fact that the number of potentials is exponentially decreased with the the increasing injustice--I do lament it just not everyday.
For one, Im nowhere near ready for marriage (my present relationship drama is proof of that) so maybe I will feel more of the pressure when I get a bit older or finish school and have more incentive to get tthat part of my life moving on.
I do want to say that there are some valid points that the first anonymous post makes--ive seem more violent relationships riddled with domestic violence than I have seen positive relationships and it does make me wary. I also think that the traditional "ideas" of marriage in this country are highly detrimental ...too many people focus on the grand wedding and being a princess for the day and spending 50000 dollars than laying out a plan for what you want your marriage to be. Mine wont be traditional in the sense that I am presenting myself to my husband as gift on a day when I wear a princess dress and hope that he is the prince. Nope. It will be two souls who have worked out some issues, worked out a plan, and made an agreement to be together, work together, grown together and love together and be human together.
SOrry to to get all sappy.
No doupt the racist criminal justice system needs to be addressed, but so does the racist economy. Also, I don't doupt that many single AA women feel that they would like to be married. But because AA men are locked up disproportionatly and because a large proportion of the remaining AA men have been set up by the failing educational system so that they are not able to make a living wage. I think that many of our societies systems must be addressed including eduational, economic and criminal justice before AA women will be able to realize their dreams of a true relationship with an AA man.
i am one of the four black women who sent brian the new york times article that heralded the new u.s. census bureau statistic.
i will start by answering the first query: why is this important?
for me, the statistic has serious social, economic, and spiritual ramifications. these ramifications should force black men and women to critically analyze every thing from their dating habits and preferences to their perspective on marriage and family planning.
let's start with the social aspect. in essence, this statistic articulates the nature of the majority of black families that raise our children. single. any way you want to slice it, it means that black men and black men are choosing engage in sexual heterosexual relationships(oftentimes nonexclusively) often lead to the birth of children that are not privileged to experience several aspects of a health relationship. some of these couples never marry. some of these couples divorce. some of these aspects of a healthy relationship include: stability, true love (not to be confused with lust), and true love models (not to be confused with immitations).
these aspects are important because a black man's and black woman's ability to love, create families, and grow up to be productive, responsible, loving, and God-fearing black man or black woman are contigent upon these very fragile aspects.
now, of course, there are other aspects and of course, volumes can be written on black relationships. however, i want to be clear. socially, the statistic is important to me, because it is a major indication that in terms of relationships black men and black women have lowered their standards.
i am the product of family who values marriage. my parents have been married for 27 1/2 years. (it will be 28 this june.) my brother and i have benefitted from the sacrifices my parents have made to sustain their marriage and i love them dearly for that. while i realize that marriage is not for every couple, i do feel strongly that marriage is a social, economic, and spiritual institution that encourages and deeply supports the task of creating a family and raising it to the best of one's ability.
therefore, in my humble opinion, if black couples are not willing to marry, then, they'd better have a doggone good system in place to raise the seeds that may come from that union. and to be honest, few single-parenting systems that i have witnessed have impressed me.
economically, the fact that black women are choosing to stay single longer, or are not choosing to remarry, or whatever the case my be, means that black women (and often times their children) are behind economically. now, please do not get me wrong. i am aware that black women have a myriad of academic and professional opportunities at their feet. and for those opportunities i am grateful. however, marriage ideally brings two incomes together as well as two souls. therefore, black men and black women are able to purchase real estate, invest in black businesses, and manage other assets more easily. of course, a couple need not be married in order to achieve these goals. but it is common knowledge that marriage, though flawed in some ways, is an institution that this country's government respects. and by respect, i mean it is honored. spouses are given health, economic, and other benefits by virtue of their married status. again, i don't believe marriage is for every one. but in a country where health care benefits are so difficult to come by, it would seem that black couples would be more encouraged to marry because of the status and benefits gained.
spiritually, i feel that this statistic illustrates some black people's disregard for the blessing and sanctity of marriage. sex, though distorted and cheapened in this society, is still intended for the pleasure and procreation of married couples.
in conclusion, i appreciate every one's comments on the matter. it takes courage to voice one's opinion on the matter.
i am a black woman who desires to get married, have children, and succeed professionally. i am willing to make sacrifices so that my children have at least the benefit of virtues that were the foundation of my family-uprbringing. i cannot speak for other black women, but keeping my focus on what i feel my unborn children desire is what helps me maintain high standards. i do not mean to knock any one else's lifestyle, but sacrifice is the name of the game. one cannot expect the most when they contributed the least.
peace.
I am a black women, personally I think all the pressure on the traditional idea of marriage is detrimental to women. Women are getting married less across the board because every successive generation is deciding that they want more out of life. I also think more women are choosing to live with their mate for a while instead of getting married right away. I'm not interested in getting married to someone until I have been in a stable relationship with that person for at least 10 to 15 years. I would like to get married in my life and have kids but if I don't I don't feel like I will die alone/unhappy.
Marriage isnt going to magically make someone happy. I think that black women need to focus on themselves at this point. The reality is that institutionalized racism/the prison industrial complex have a lot to do with why black women are at a loss in the men department. So women what can we do about that right now? Work on empowering ourselves and our families, as long as we look at single parent black families as inherently worse off we are not helping each other.
I think that society (white society and black men) focus soooo much energy and time on making black women feel insecure, inadequate, hopeless and depressed because they cant find a man. Comments like "HBCU women often fall under the spell of thinking that there are plenty of black men out there and that they have time to wait"
This type of attitude isn't helping black women who are out here right now struggling to raise the next generation. I think this kind of attitude is only helping the insecurity within our communities that dictates that women put up with cheating men and that forces a woman to justify not making her man to wear a condom (HIV anyone), basically women devaluing themselves at the expense of men. This type of thinking also breeds negative attitudes that black women put out toward each other, we always feel that we have to be in competition over a man, and in turn negative toward each other. If anything we should be working to empower black women right now who may or may not get married. Women you can be happy without a man! We need to talk about how its OK if you don't get married. And its very possible to raise a healthy happy family as a single parent. You can create an alternative family, with friends, your extended family.
Its not the end of the world or your happiness if marriage doesn't happen for you.
j9
I'm not saying it's the end of the world if a woman doesn't get married.
IT IS NOT.
I'm not talking about how "we should" be working to empower black women who may remain single.
I am not saying that marriage is going to magically make anyone happy.
What I am talking about is what I think most black women want, and that is a man.
It is not the end of the world if you don't get that man.
This sentence: "women are getting married less across the board because every successive generation is deciding that they want more out of life." is straight untrue. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion!
But we ought to be strong enough to admit we want something and be okay if we don't get it. That is called being vulnerable. And no one ought to loose that virtue.
You admit that "institutionalized racism/the prison industrial complex have a lot to do with why black women are at a loss in the men department"... but then you say the answer is to work on empowering yourself and your family... this is fine and i agree... but you seem to dismiss that the other answer that must occur simultaneously is that you need to work on changing that reality of the racist prison industrial complex!
My comment on HBCU black women was not meant to dismiss the struggles of single black women out here trying to raise kids... it was simply to share my experience and observation that MOST (not all) black women at Howard were spoiled and now are shocked that they have graduated and the pool of men has diminished... they thought they had all the time in the world and deprioritized marriage and family, while there are black women at mainstream universities and black women who never went to college who don't take black men for granted and actually "hunt" for good black men to find because their everyday reality put it in their face that black men are scant, while their counterparts in HBCU's live (at least for 4 years) in a reality that suggests there are plenty of good black men to go around.
I AM NOT REINFORCING ANYTHING! What I am doing is telling you how it is. The majority of black women don't put up with mediocre black men because of my comments on this blog! They put up with mediocre black men because they often simply want "a relationship" more than they want "a perfect relationship". That reflects the slave state of our black men. And presents us with a challange that we change that state.
This suggests that more than black women just empowering eachother to survive in a world without black men (good luck finding enough black women who will want to just settle for only doing that)... black women want to ALSO make a strong push to save their beloved black men. That's not me being idealistic... this is really how most black women feel out here.
brian, i want to address your comment:
We ought to realize that Howard and HBCU black women often get to be more "human" (which in this society means more white) and often fall under the spell of thinking there are plenty of black men out there and that they have time to wait.
i do not want us to fall into the trap of romanticizing the black woman's hbcu experiences socially and romantically. and the same goes for the black man's hbcu experiences.
i say that to say when i was at howard (famous last words), i didn't feel like i had died and gone to black woman's heaven. on the contrary, i felt torn.
there was a disproportionate number of brothas to sistas. simply put if every one were heterosexual, there just were not enough men to go around--particularly for the sistas attracted to a special blend of socially-conscious brothas. and though most of the brothas were grinding intellectually, politically, professionally, and attractive (which no doubt is a powerful combination), i remember feeling like if just 20 of us sistas could begin to exclusively date a mature, intelligent, well-mannered brotha, wedding bells would be ringing year round in rankin chapel.
i'm not trying to diss the hbcu/howard brothas because i know quite a few sistas that needed to be on that act-right during my tenure. more importantly, marriage and commitment has to do with maturity-not numbers. a sista only needs one husband. a brotha only needs one wife.
though it sounds nice to romanticize hbcu love, it is more realistic to take into account that some brothas attending hbcus just are not qualified during the typical sista's hbcu tenure to place "marriage material" on their resumes just yet. give them 5-7 years and then maybe they can negotiate it.
Wow, first off let me admit to the world, I know nothing about love, or marriage. I have an assumption, an idea. But for the most part I know only what I have witnessed and have seen in this society (media included or conditioned me). Second forgive my rambles but stay with me it’ hard to point out and agree or disagree to all the comments and opinions…
I had what many (and many men and women told me this) have said was the perfect man. He was the most honest and romantic man in the world everything you would want. And I left him. I wanted more than the life society portrays, even more importantly than the world, my family.
In my family, family is the most important thing. At all functions they ask about your personal life, be it who are you dating. After a certain age its, are you getting married? Once that happens it's when are you having children? It revolves around family, having children, what are you children doing, how old are they... it goes on and on. Good or bad it is what it is.
Society does a good job haunting you to be a specific way, although certain life styles or experiences are not for everyone. I believe that is a good thing, especially if its not hurting anyone. That is why relationships in general are such a serious subject. They involve other people. That is what makes it hard and the essence of the problems.
At the moment I have chosen against that. I have no relationship because I do not want one, nor have I met a person I would want one with.
See many say that is it! No, it is not. I know what I am worth and I am not going to settle for less. A relationship is nothing to be played with. Thus, a marriage is even more, sacred.
And with that being said I come to the conclusion marriage is important in my personal opinion especially if children are involved. And yes, most women want children thus marriage is important. Although if a loving and healthy relationship cannot happen for whatever reason a child can grow up just fine as long as there is love. Cliché I know but true. I agree that marriages are an economical gain and a social gain in our society as well. I think both parties need to work extremely hard and communication is the key. Cheating in a marriage/relationship is not acceptable and is a betrayal and disrespectful. Another reason why I believe women do not want to marry.
As for AA women not being able to find a good AA man “Mainly because of the injustices occurring in the American criminal justice system... mandatory minimum sentencing, unequal drug sentencing laws... a belief that locking more black men up is better for society than healing black men.” I do not buy it. I do not think that is the reason. I personally am single because the men that have been around are not ready to make that step, or we weren’t ready for that step. All the men that I have had relationships with were the “good catch” (had their own place, a 4 year degree and more, a job) and I (same as them) and still no marriage. Sometimes it’s just not right. I believe all relationships are a continual learning experience and once you have learned the lesson that only they can teach you must move on. You cannot make someone be with you and marry you. AA women are just tired of AA men not taking responsibility. The “good” ones think they are the cream of the crop, they think cheating is ok. One day my heart says I love you and then you’ve fallen for another.
AA men, even a regular ol’ man can’t fit the bill. Why? I don’t really know the answer. I just know they have tons of excuses and reasons. I agree with Raven in the detail of pointing out that its men from this country. I met a man the other day that stared into my eyes and said he is what the society portrays him. He said his culture is the media. I told him to grab a copy of the Liberator ;) .. But for real, there is something really wrong with AA men and I truly do not know what it is. My father came to this country for the American dream to provide for his family and to make something of himself. Only in this country! And he did it. He came from a country that didn’t give a damn if he didn’t have food to eat or shelter. Education system worst than here, if he didn’t go it didn’t matter. Truancy? LoL. Crime would have been easy for him to do but he chose not to. He could have stolen but didn’t. My mother and father had nothing. My mom still clowns him because when they met he had no shoes. My father has broken all the barriers and has achieved a whole lot. Never did he blame anything on race, or the system. He worked hard and was a good moral man and took care of his responsibilities. And he came from a very broken home. Father died when he was three and his mother sent him away when she started a new family. I believe us living in the US take so much for granted and find many excuses for the circumstances that we live with.
I see alot of good points. But I see one thing everyone usually forgets. So many women want the supreme fairy tale of life...a dream wedding, the man that makes her happy, and a beautiful future to go along with it.
Funny thing is...everybody has an idea of what they want but nobody ever really knows who they are. Everybody spends so much time making assumptions and excuses about who they are and why they do what they do but in my opinion, the biggest problem both men and women have is that we never do enough soul searching to really know who we are. Why do we find out new things about about oursevles that only come out when we are in relationships? Because a part of us we are unaware of only shows when we have to give ourselves to another person. That's not a good excuse at all. I feel it's impossible to know everything about yourself but I feel it's even more impossible to say you want to be with someone and want them to share who they are with you when you don't even know who you are.
Espically today in these times, I believe black women are usually have identity crisises. Having to play so many parts to satisfy so many different people, they just forget who the real woman is and expect a man to see that when in actuality..he's having the same problem..playing so many roles but not being himself at the end of the day.
To many this maybe insignificant but to me the only reason most relationships are pure bs these days are because of this notion that nobody knows who they are.
when i spoke on hbcu black women it was relative. EVERYTHING is relative and broard in this discussion and we really must try to keep the birds eye perspective and not retreat to our own personal perspectives and expieriences too often, although they can sometimes be of help.
relative to black women at other colleges and universities, howard IS the black woman's heaven! that's all i'm saying. holla at some black girls at the university of minnesota where the only brothas available are in a fraternity or on a sports team...
so i realize what i said might sound romantic. in actuality it is not. but relative to the experiences of black women who do not attend hbcu's and black women who live in places like denver, minneapolis, st paul, kansas city, buffalo, los angeles, in other words numerous places in this nation where there are just not that many black men doing big things... and a place like howard becomes very romantic.
families who come to howard's graduation from these places are amazed just to see so many black men not in jail! so to them it is romantic. it is amazing and unfathomable, sadly enough. the first thing my cousin said when they dropped me off at the male dorm on howard's campus was, "wow! its so beautiful to see so many black men not in jail!" and the first thing my dad said on graduation day was "you know for however many faults a place like howard might have, i sure am glad we have places like this, aren't you?
this may not be ideal. but this is real. when you are starving and homeless a meal that might not be the best thing in the world and might have all kinds of flaws in itself might taste like the finest cuisine in the world.
to the commenter right above me.. the fact that you speak of such a strong family history says that you are not of the same experience as most black american women. so i guess i don't have that much to say to that directly.
your experience is to be respected. however it is just not as relevant to this conversation i feel. you have a father from a different country as you said. you had a father. these facts put you in a whole 'nother category. you can be picky and be cool with that because you have a reference. you have a father who will help set some standards for you. consider yourself blessed.
but sisters whose fathers might not have been around, or whose fathers might have been around or who might have been on drugs or an alcoholic or abusive or in and out of jail... these sisters often will take a man who might cheat, but at least he won't beat... or at least he won't do drugs, or at least he doesn't have aids... or at least he hasn't been in jail... you get the drift.
the fact that you have had men better than this and still have choosen not to be with them for whatever reason simply speaks to your social training/upbringing and status. which is a good thing. just realize ain't everybody get lessons as good as yours.
even though your family might bug you about getting married, the fact that you have examples around you, etc... i think might help make you stronger in your belief that there is at least a "more perfect" man out there for you.
I'm not advocating for wack black men either.
But I am saying that there is a reason why black women go for sub-par men... because like i said they want "a man" often more than they might want a "good man."
just like a starving man might want a "meal" more than a "good meal."
And at the same time there is a reason why so many black men are subpar... the ratios are against us.
If you are looking for 10 great black men it's highly unlikely that you'll get what you want in a field of only 10 black men... you'd have to have a 100% ratio...
but If you have a field of 100 black men the odds are better that you'll have at least 10 great ones (whatever that might mean... understand we are speaking in heavy metaphors and using large broad symbols)
So if you really wanna improve the stock of black men why not help get them out of these prisons and prevent this system from locking so many up (do you actually know the numbers? i find it hard to believe that you actually know the facts when you dismiss this factor so easily) and then maybe the chances of finding one for you would increase.
the black community is starving and big macs look like fine cuisine.
you seem to have "eaten" well and thus seem to have been taught that mcdonalds might quench your hunger but it ain't an ideal source of nutrition. although be careful not to think you had the perfect "catch" just cause he had a degree and an apartment. there obviously is no perfect catch. that is such a western romantic concept. that yes, does put alot of pressure on shoulders.
but if you were raised as a starving child would you eat a big mac if given the opportunity or would you rather starve?
this may not be ideal. but this is real.
i am not advocating big macs. nor am i defending mcdonalds. or making excuses for the golden arches such as "oh they provide cheap food"... nah i aint stupid.
i know the ideal situation. i know the ideal "meal" if you will.
and hopefully communities will take their farms back and retill the soil. they might have to deal with some shitty soil for a while. it might be the hardest farming season in history but hopefully they will see it worth the effort to one day have a farm that produces good, healthy, clean food for the community.
hopefully they will work on re-creating the farms, and re-learning how to farm...
but right now people are starving and to many a big mac is better than starvation. so they'll eat a big mac. and work with it, hopefully while they are eating big macs they will be encouraged and challenged to study their "square foot gardening" books (actually a great book by the way)... trying to lean how to build a garden in their back yard. feel me?
lastly, "traditional marriage" might not be for everyone. my parents aren't officially "married" but they have been (back) together for almost 15 years. they never had a wedding. never got "engaged". but the community knows they are bound. and holds them accountable to take care of eachother and while us kids were young, the community (or what was left of it) and family held them accountable to take care of us... and chipped in when necessary.
but marriage... the principle of a bond... of responsibility to another person and accountability for another life besides yours... the ultimate institution of selflessness... or service... is a vital aspect of any human society... just as eating is a vital aspect of any human life.
and sometimes in order to maintain human life we eat big macs... and often times in order to maintain families and communities we do something similar... we love and "marry" people with serious faults... happiness is a big part of life, but it is A PART not the whole. there comes a time when we must realize that COMMUNAL life isn't all happiness but a combination or happiness, sadness, responsibility, respect, service, honor, committment, pride, dissappointment... etc.
the family is the basic institution of any community/nation. it is the mini-nation. right? it's where all of our concepts of loyalty come from. where culture is fostered. where the most vital education takes place. the very terms "nuclear" and "extended" family are confusing. extended families contain so-called nuclear units. someone has to be "together". someone is someone's father and someone is someone's mother, and someone is someone's child... right? the extended family "extends" the family... but there at first has to be a "family" to extend.
help me to see this so-called nation without bonded family units. i can't see what that looks like.
Before I read anyone else's comments to this, I thought I would share this blurb of an opinion. Marriage is a financial institution, legalizing what occurs between two people, as if putting it on paper will make a difference. 50% of those married can attest that it doesn't. While I do believe in lifelong commitment; that dedicating one's life to another's happiness in the hopes that dedication is reciprocated is admirable and respectable, unless I am so moved at the time, I do not see the rationale in promising to make a lifelong commitment in front of other people, who might or might not stay in my life for the long haul that I am determined to keep this person in my life until it's over. If, then, I will require it to be with folks who will be as committed to the commitment as I. If, then, we look at marriage as the responsibility of the masses as well as those involved, well, maybe...but even then, no. Love is not for quitters, it's true, but if I am moved by the spirit to be committed to someone, I am not sure if a piece of paper requiring me to do so is necessary.
^^^^ I feel that
ok wow so many great opinions and posts. I guess I've been taken aback by Brian.
Brian, how can you presume to tell a black woman that her opinion isn't relevant to a discussion about black woman?(I'm referring to your last post) Thats really interesting to me. I know your not the type of dude with the typical patriarchal, sexist attitudes but your coming off that way. Every female opinion that you don't agree with you've shot down as wrong and irrelevant. What's up with that? Women are the only one's who can and are going to solve womens problems. (It's like a white person trying to tell a black person how to solve their problems, the black person might have a certain amount of particular insight into the situation simply because they are black and they live it everyday, the white person just cant seem to understand.) And of course, men can and will contribute where ever needed but don't pull the typical male (I can tell a woman how to fix her problems without listening to anything that the woman has to say about her situation) stuff. If it sounds harsh I don't mean it that way, its just the net. Its hard/impossible to get across your true feelings/intentions when your typing. Not trying to offend.
And of course, like I said previously the prison industrial complex is a huge reason why there are not enough men available to black women, but I don't think that the solution is as simple as relieving the problem of black men going to jail(no that that particular problem is at all simple). Of course we have to work to combat institutionalized racism, but people aren't going to rise up against their collective oppressor until they are psychologically ready to. As black women we have our own set of problems and psychological issues that revolve around our own institutional oppression as women and, as women of color. Thats why I was pressing the issue of empowerment earlier. If we women still hate ourselves on the inside having more black men around isn't going to change that fact and its also not going to change the fact that our families will still be messed up, and the next generation is still suffering.
Earlier I also stated that "marriage is in decline across the board because every successive generation of women are deciding that they want more out of life." I came to that conclusion after looking at statistics on marriage from all industrialized countries, and marriage rates are down everywhere. This wasn't surprising to me because traditionally marriage has always been oppressive to women. In industrialized nations women generally have more options and every generation of women has made strides in opening up more doors for the next generation. Women these days tend to put more emphasis on having a career and fulfilling personal goals before committing to a family and marriage. I'm in the midst of doing that same thing right now. I have a great boyfriend(black male) who wants to get married, but I'm not ready and I have my own goals that I want to accomplish. Unfortunately my goals are going to take me half way around the world for 2 years, but thats the way it has to be. I have to live my life for me. I'm one of those women and thats fine with me.
Lastly and then I'll get off my soapbox! HU is NOT heaven for black women. I guess it would be if my idea of heaven was having a bunch of immature boys running around me who think they are gods gift to black women. This attitude (stating that HU is Heaven for black women is a perfect example)that has been inundated into successful black men makes me want to puke. I totally agree with the lady who posted before on this topic( you wrote about your dad who came from another country), while I was at Howard the majority of the boys I came across felt that they were gods gift and that they had the right to cheat because they had been so inundated with being told that they were the cream of the crop of black men, so in turn they treat their sisters like shit. Too many girls too little time attitude. disclaimer,not all Howard men.
And I'm actually from Kansas City, you know one of those women that was mentioned earlier as having to wallow in a wasteland of no men to choose from. The main difference that I noticed from men I grew up with and from Howard men was that the men I grew up with were a lot more interested in settling down and starting a family/being serious about one girl, not that there were none to choose from or that they weren't ambitious, they just are in different situations with less opportunity, doesn't make them bad mates. The pickins were smaller because its Kansas City not DC.
But I still had to look outside of Howard before I found any dateable men in DC. Either they were locals (such as my boyfriend now)or they had graduated from somewhere else.
OK I'M DONE! LOL
Sorry my post was so long
j9
Aww Snap...
NOW WE'RE TALKING!!!
And its juicy too!! LMAO!
O.K...
I think this conversation is so necessary and I'm glad we're having it!!!
1) I agree that a significant problem is the incarceration rate of African men (especially in America). One out of 13 makes me sick...like it actually brings on a feeling of nausea. It is a strong aspect of genocide, believe it...I think that more work needs to be done in regard to the relationships between African men when they are incarcerated (ain't it interesting how the white media loves to portray the hyper-sexual Black-man-as-rapist image in movies...as though that is just how Black men ARE...ready to attack?). Put it this way: I've been told by several homosexual Black men that one can't be turned gay...that you have to be "into" it to "actively" participate (which is different from being forecefully violated). More than that however, I think its important to address the sick, twisted minds of those who devised the inhumane practice of the penal system. To place a HUMAN BEING in a square cell, for YEARS (imagine being 45 and having been in jail since age 17 or so?)...that person will NATURALLY want love, even NEED love and affection...it is the most human feeling. And to deprive someone of that...is inhumane...and then that person is forced to look at options of survival (sometimes to maintain sanity). That's just real...and we may not like it but that's where it gets tricky (I think) and that's when we have to know that the imprisonment of our bredren is an act of cultural and spiritual genocide. Period.
And these people come back...and now there is imbalance (in places where it shouldn't be). I know of many men who have come home from prison and assaulted boys in their own family, because they have become used to a lifestyle that is no longer effective in the outside world. So I think that that problem is really just a whole gang of problems in and of itself (it speaks to slavery, oppression, apartheid, you name it). But I digress...
2) Now that THAT's said...as far as marriage goes, I do agree that the nuclear family has been imposed on our community...it is an aspect of Western ideology (patriarchy, etc.) And I'm not saying that to be on a feminist or even womanist tip, its more so a cultural thing. We live in a society that thrives off of individualism...what's mine is mine...heck what's YOURS is mine! There's this idea that the dream is a house for me and mines with MY children, MY man and whatnot. Problem is...history says something different. In more places around the globe than not, polygamy is widely practiced...why? Because what's mine IS yours and ceratin things have to be addressed based on necessity and optimal survival. I am one that firmly believes it is almost impossible for a man to be completely faithful forever (there may be one or two exceptions...but I've NEVER known it to be the majority). More than that however, marriage IS about financial security, familial ties, political structure, etc. So it serves a lot of different purposes. With that in mind, polygamy has made a world of difference since time began...and we have let our oppressors tell us that it is unnatural (a sin even!) and it oppresses women! And I'm not romanticizing it either (because I know African women here in the States who have had polygamist relationships and it ain't all peaches!). Still, I think that that would address the population issue (which was part of the Prohet Muhammad's, PBUH, claim about polygamy...creating order).
I know that in 2007 it would be hard for most folks because the society we live in is diametrically opposed to it, but I do think its an ancient, tried and true practice that really should be explored. My thing is, it legitimizes the whole "other woman" issue, it brings her into the family, makes her pull some weight and takes all the fun out of being a mistress ( I say: bring her home...make her do some laundry, cook, clean, take care of YOUR kids and whatnot...forget all the trips, dinners and spending our money on that scandalous cheating crap!).
3) My good brother (Brian): got to disagree, Howard ain't no paradise for the sisters! Know why? Like Courtney said (hey girl!), there ain't enough brothers to go round period! Good, bad, ugly, whatever! And its crazy because then, there's this hierarchy of women (you know: light-skinned, long hair...then light-skinned short hair...then dark skinned long hair...etc.)...and I don't care what ANYBODY says...that's the dag on truth (its messed up, but its real). And with so many women to go round, a brother can have plenty of the ideal woman (based on Western/Mentally enslaved perspectives) without EVER tip-toeing down to women ranked #2 or 3, etc. As one of my homies put it, there are so many "bad" women to chose from (who look like they just walked out of a music video) that they haven't got one good reason to explore anything BUT that (but that's another aspect of the Howard legacy, no?)
And for those of us who happen to exist on the other side of the color spectrum...THAT ain't paradise! Just a whole group of men that tend to be reaching for lighter, more socially-acceptable heights most times (and that's nothing against my lighter sisters either...because its no fault of your own, its just the way things are).
4) Then there is the whole "social climb" thing that makes a difference. I think that ts hard for women who are not only college-educated, but have also had a plethora of experiences (world travel, extensive or specialized studies, leadership positions, etc.) I don't care HOW open-minded the brother is, I rarely meet men who are REALLY comfortable with a woman they can't lead (in the "I know more than you and you hang on my every word" sort of way)...and that isn't a diss to my brothers either, but what with constant emasculation by white America and just naturally needing to exert that manly power, its quite natural to want/need a woman to worship you (if not her than WHO?) and there are many brothers who feel that that worship is best when it comes from a woman who's eyes they can pull the wool from. Sometimes, when the wool's already been pulled its like, well what NOW...how am I her MAN!
I think what brothers DON'T always realize is that sisters REALLY DO want that male energy and that we REALLY do want to be led in some ways (but how can you let your guard down to invite that type of thing when there is a lack of trust, or whatever the problem may be). And of course there are, on the flip side, sisters who want to control the brothers and sometimes resist the beauty of traditional roles (cooking, keeping house and home, etc.). I for one can't WAIT to be a housewife...I think that is the bomb job! I don't think that reduces my humanity or power at all, in fact, I would consider being an effective wife and mother to be a supreme accomplishment!
And sadly, a lot of us are pushed in this direction of like being exceptional (the top this, the highest that) and then its like, after all that, what do you DO with yourself? What's all this for ANYWAY? To be alone in your nice big condo, living it up all Sex-In-The-City by your damn self? So a lot of women get suckered in to reach reach reach and its exhausting AND you're told by EVERYONE that you should only be with a college-educated man (when it ain't always realistic or even feasible). And then you see sisters who have "settled" for a house and a home...and you feel cheated because all this ain't always what its cracked up to be!
5) Now I recognize that there are a lot of generalizations and assumptions in the above statement. I know that EVERY brother ain't color-struck, and that EVERY brother ain't intimidated by a sister who's a leader, etc...I ALSO know that some sisters get passed up because of they're attitude (especially if they're NOT open, not trusting of men in general or maybe a little too...um..."loose"). But I guess I'm saying that its high time we evaluated what we want our lives to be for ourselves. We have GOT to divorce ourselves from the oppressor's interpretation of life (because it is sadly imbalanced and creates hella drama). More than that, we have to deal with issues amongst ourselves (especially sexual abuse, domestic violence, disrespect, infidelity, etc. because they just spread more imbalance like a disease).
To be clear: when I was in high school, it was my intention to have my first child when I was 21 (somehow that age seemed FAR into the future and appeared to be a great time to get things started!). And I'll be 24 in June! No babies or marriage in sight! And that's cool because there's so much to DO and I KNOW that and ideally, I'd love to just disappear into that role (you know the meek wife who let's her husband make all the decisions) but for whatever reason, God wants me to grow a little (and I'll be the first to admit that that level of comfort would probably stop me from doing a whole lot that I need to do...there's no point in pushing yourself to higher heights if you can just lay back and have your man do all the work!). So it IS a catch 22, it ain't always fair, it DOES make me wonder and all I can do is turn my face upwards because that is where the answers lie.
Done (finally).
"howard is the black woman's heaven". Wow. Are you serious? THat is not the perception I have of Howard at all -nor is it the perception that many other women I know had when they were there. The disproportionate number of black men relative to black women is not a joke, or an exaggeration. If anything, black women at Howard get a dose of reality---because the environment is really a microcosm representing the larger reality---that for every 10 black women there are NOT 10 black men. Its more like 10 to 5 or 3.
"black women at howard are spoiled"??? is this for real?? Ive heard so many women complain about the lack of options because there were so few men and many of the men that were available tend to like to share themselves around a bit. How much of that is myth and how much of that is solid truth representing the experiences of many black women? Lol. Its amazing how different the perception is. I dont think there is a woman at an HBCU or otherwise that is spoiled in to thinking that she there is a plethora of available black men.
To think so is kind of tantamount to thinking black women, especially the ones mentioned that went to the Howard, are kind of oblivious to what is going. Sure some might be, but there are many of us who went there and didnt have our heads stuck in designer fashion bags.
the lady above me posts went on unread before i posted---but she hit and delved in to some issues i didnt since i was so appalled that someone would call Howard a paradise for black women or even Xavier or whatever other HBCU. LOL
let you be nappy-headed and kind of "anti-establishment" and your rank sinks abysmally. (generally speaking of course as ive met some young at Howard who had a clue lol)
it's cool. it's discussion! which is a loving act so no offence!
but by no means am i trying to speak for black women. but i also realize that one black woman cannot speak for black women either.
i've no problem when white people speak on black issues. as long as they are being logical and honest in their perceptions and open and vulnerable with how they share them. if we disagree... that's fine. but what i respect most is the willingness to have discussion. that takes "courage" like courtney300 said.
women are not the ONLY one's who are going to solve women's problems.
this sounds so crazy that it's almost funny to me. that this type of separatist attitude exists. i feel like your trying to give me some good criticism but you're coming from this super-hyper-female perspective.
i'm not trying to tell women how to solve their problems without listening to them! all of my comments and perspective comes from the women in my life that i know or love or know and love.
a people should always be willing to take any kind of help they can get. the key is to know where to file all these "suggestions" coming in the comment box so that that people maintain their priorities and don't get sidetracked with every new suggestion.
and one last thing on this... men talking with women about "their problems" as you seem to want to put it, is not like white people talking to black people perse.
my MOTHER is a woman! my aunt, my sisters! my cousins! i love them more than anything on this earth including myself. period.
i got a right to speak and won't let anyone tell me differently. the women in my life give me permission to speak (moreso, encouragement) and i will do so guided by what i believe to be my most honest and logical brain and heart.
--
the prison industrial complex is not the ONE simple solution. WHAT I AM SAYING IS THAT IT MUST BE MADE A PRIORITY.
contrary to what you're saying... we DO NOT have to wait for everyone to get on point psychologically to rise up. if people did that there would be no mass movements.
there would be no civil rights movement.
there would be no liberated African continent.
there would be no independent Cuba.
women are not going to heal themselves and then say, "okay we're ready to go save our black men!"
black people! (women and men) must work to heal black women psychologically, just as black people! (women and men) must work to heal black men psychologically.
BUT these are social goals... these are things we need to be doing in social groups and in our homes and schools and places of social training and healing.
THERE can be a political mass movement while these things are taking place... and often the two movements feed into eachother!
James Brown's (RIP) "I'm black and I'm Proud" fed off of the political movements of the people and in return the movements of the people fed off of that song...
Let us not try and put actions into bubbles or act like people can only handle doing one thing at a time.
I think the social things we do will not be jumpstarted until some kindof mass political action happens, and thus i see the sparking of a mass political action as a priority. Not as THE ONLY thing that will save everything. There is nothing like that.
I understand what you're sayin and agree with the essence that women need to be healed. I'm just disagreeing with you when you say men can't be apart of it and when you say it has to happen before anything else can happen.
--
your comments relating industrialized countries to women not getting married because "they want more out of life" does a lot for justifying why YOU feel how you feel about marriage, but it doesn't speak at all to the women in industrialized socieities whose opportunities are on the decline...
such as black women in prisons, black women not going to college, black women working minimum wage jobs. talk to them about opportunities. I'm sure they'd rather be married.
This is exactly what I mean when I talk about HBCU women. Most of y'all are afforded these opportunities which take you out of the "normal black women" category.
There is nothing wrong with that! Be proud! But I'm just saying, put yourself in the shoes of women who didn't have you experience!
And for god's sake stop clinging to the word "HEAVEN" i said it was relative y'all. come on now.
You're not even addressing what I'm saying: I'm saying RELATIVE to other circumstances... the HBCU experience is HEAVEN.
I will even admit that as a man. When you're at a HBCU you see all the bad. But when you talk to people who don't have the same experience you realize how valuable it is and how grand people hold it in their eyes and hearts... people would "kill" (metaphor) to be in that type of environment.
There are black women who would "kill" to be around those "immature" black men at HBCU's that you speak of.
Anyone who knows me knows that I am not a man who thinks he is god's gift to anything. I ain't shit!
I realize there are men at howard who could use attitude ajustments and a big dose of humility but logically it makes sense! They are items in demand just by the numbers.
That is the department where "middle class" black men -- "middle class" is a relative term to for the sake of this discussion because there is not really a black middle class in the USA -- (the ones who are left) need healing. They need to know that they have a responsibility to not take advantage of the fact that there are all these "middle class" women and not too many of them.
But that does not dismiss the fact that regardless of how those men react to their circumstance in a HBCU, there are still women who would love to be in a "more humanizing" environment like an HBCU where there are maybe 1 black men for every 10 of them (something that HBCU women often complain about) instead of 1 black men out of every 100 of them!!!
All I'm saying is step outside of "your experience" and realize that even tho you might have it somewhat bad at an HBCU in terms of men choice, there are sisters who have it 10 times worse!
Well, I definitely feel where you're coming from Brian. I just think that what we're taking issue with is the notion that somehow being at an HBCU affords a Black woman with 1)a better selection of men 2)a better opportunity to actually get married, etc.
Problem is that just isn't the case. And more so because a lot of us (who again are farther down on that hierarchy) tend to date outside of the HBCU circle ANYWAY and tend to have the SAME EXPERIENCES as the sisters who aren't in that environment. We have to remember that a lot of folks maintain relationships from home or simply step off of campus to explore a wider pool of men. So then you are STILL confronted with the brother who "runs the streets" or who may have children, and other experiences that are typically deemed "unfitting" for a sister of "HBCU caliber"! But the problem is, as mentioned, with the population issue every sister just CAN'T benefit from the men at the HBCU because there just AREN'T enough.
It doesn't matter why there aren't enough...because the fact still remains (and that in and of itself is a powerful thing). I can honestly say that my personal pool of men was ALWAYS outside of the HBCU (until VERY RECENTLY). So I never got the oportunity to experience the glory of the HBCU man (aside from all you folks that are like family! And I love ya'll but we are FAMILY....so that ain't gonna work!). But my point is, people COME to an HBCU from SOMEWHERE and they bring those experiences with them. So that plays a part too...and sometimes being ON a campus full of powerful African people, while that DOES inspire, it ain't always gonna cut it in the love department. So I can say that I have never limited myself to that because it just wasn't realistic or even feasible most times.
So like, even if EVERY single woman and man who stepped foot on the HBCU campus was ready and waiting for a true love experience, it STILL couldn't realistically happen on campus...so there will ALWAYS be sisters that have to step outside (simply due to the numbers).
I agree that every one has a voice in this...the sisters And the brothers. But I think we have to see it how it really is. I remeber being young and reading Essence magazines about how hard for "professional" Black women to find a man...and I used to think "Oh, they're just complaining, it can't be THAT hard!" But it IS and I have absolutely NO problem dating a person who has not stepped foot on a college campus, problem is they can't ALWAYS handle dating me! And there, my friends, lies the problem.
Question: what is the PLACE of a woman anyway? Remember take those Western eyeglasses off! Im talking about the real PLACE (not the feminist extremes or the patriarchal subjugation). Haven't women historically been mothers, wives, leaders, artists, and entrepreneurs (but from a home base)? I believe the real problem is that we are all walking around displaced. We are told to be one thing, but it goes aganst nature and our own humanity. That is a product of our oppression, our oppression has forced all of us (men and women) to step into roles that stretch our humanity in ways that are beautiful and sometimes painful too. Malcolm X could have, in another time, been a great leader simply by studying at Sankore and Timbucktu. But in AMERICA, he had to pimp, spend time in jail, and experience a lot of hardship to develop. My point is that we are all living based on survival. Or my dear patron Saint Harriet Tubman, she left her husband to take on a role of liberating her people. I wonder, did she ever find love again? How painful was that to leave him for what God had her to do? Her husband was a free man, yet she STILL left the plantation (and while that is what God planned, I just wonder how she FELT about it).
In today's times, it IS beneficial to a family unit to have a "successful" woman in the home who can contribute in the march towards economic and social power (because these things must be fought for). In another time, we may have been able to lead from the seat of our homes, teaching and developing our youth, counseling our communities, healing our nations, etc.
So this imposed role, it is so unnatural, much of what we experience in today's society is unnatural and unfulfilling. Again, we HAVE to identify practices that are effective. We really have to build and strengthen our families, that should be a paramount goal. The family builds the village which build the nation.
…sure know how to reel in a great discussion, honestly i was a bit slow on how it would grow. well, I haven’t much to really say beyond what these powerful women have so eloquently expressed so im not gonna force anything to the point of sounding redundant. however, I will further elaborate that this dialogue is seriously deficient due to the fact that brian(yeah, he aint shyt, and we aint either;) is the ONLY male commenting on this subject. (oh "J" too, male, right?)
while im not on either side of rather this 51% is negative or positive because each woman’s life varies with many different unique factors that results to this statistic. but black men need to be more engaged in this subject because it is ultimately “it takes two” to get balance and clarity. we are family and must be mindful/start at the root of HOW to develop a stable black family in the midst of this war against black men getting shot up, locked up, heart attacks in their early twenties, prostate cancer, hate crimes and all these other so called ethnic cleansing strategies (insert the other million at ur leisure) and overlooked health conditions that are seriously breaking down the possibility of having more healthy relationships among ourselves.
some time ago, I was reading through Tough Notes: A Healing for Creating Exceptional Black Men by Haki Madhubuti and I recall how Madhutbuti expressed his initial inspiration was to write this book because he has daughters. I would love to see more black men stepping up with serious analysis and action for the sake of their daughters,nieces,mothers,aunties,sisters, godchildren (and yes gannies too) to the point where we do not see where we start and end in responsibility of each other.
love what you said electriclady about family.
but bout the HBCU thing... i'm sayin tho... you still have the choice to be with the brothers at the HBCU or not. or at the very least in light of what you're saying about this skin color hierarchy and other factors that prevent you from actually being with any of them, to simply be around them and exposed to them, or not.
the sisters at the university of Minnesota, don't have a choice. their options are more diminished than yours on campus and perhaps equal if not also diminished off campus in places like Minnesota...
so at the HBCU they might not be ready or sufficient... they might have color complexes, or whatever the issue with them maybe... BUT at least they are there.
so therefore you got it better. might not be great or even good, but you got it better.
just like when Jay-Z went to Africa and said: "In my business we tend to always say that we're from the hood, you know, 'I'm from the hood, I'm from the bottom.' This is really the bottom. We're not from the hood. By no means. Not even close."
RELATIVE. he's saying yeah we had it bad in Marcy growing up but they got it way worse. doesn't mean we shouldn't help Marcy or that we are forsaking Marcy, but let's just be clear on the situation of most people in the world. and let's be careful about how self-centered we all sometimes are in thinking that our problems are the biggest.
anyway, this was merely part of the larger discussion.
my larger point is that this decline in marriage has alot to do with brothers not being around. a point that was argued against, to my confusion.
and therefore getting and keeping brothers -- especially non-violent offenders being given these crazy sentences -- out of jail should be a huge priority of ours.
because where are a huge chuck of the black men? in jail. so naturally that lowers the chances that black women will get married. is there anyone who can't see that correlation?
let's get the brothers back so our we can make our discussions about what they lack or why it won't work or whatever (which is what the HBCU comments seem to be mostly about) -- relevant to the majority of our people. because you can't even participate in that discussion if there aren't any black men around at your college or in your city.
a disproportionate amount of the black girls i went to high school with have experimented with lesbianism because of the lack of black men in Minneapolis. and that is straight from the mouth of the cow. you think the brothers at HBCUs are pimping... the university of Minnesota basketball team are the pimps of the year.
it's like people in new york complaining about the taste of their tap water. yes it is a just cause, but can people in rural Zimbabwe with no clean water at all and no water for a half a mile really relate?
all i'm saying is at least at an HBCU you are a little further past square one than other sisters...
I have to say that I really dont want people to misunderstand my previous post. Its cool like I said its the net, the medium is inherently limited.
I never would want to give the impression that men should or cannot positively be involved in this discussion or this solution building process. I want more men to be involved. We are a community/nation and we have to support each other if we want to get anywhere.
My statement to the effect of 'women will be the only one's to solve womens problems" I think was way misunderstood. Men should be involved and need to be involved if anything to learn the effects of a patriarchal society we live in. My point was that only women can be the ultimate solution to womens problems. The same way that a white person isnt gonna magically come up with the ultimate solution to the problems of racism and how it effects black people. Its just not possible. White people will always and should always contibute but, the ultimate solution has to come from black people.
When is comes to the psychological issues of women, men always and should always contribute to the solution but, the ultimate solution has to and can only come from women.
There is alot more that I want to respond to but I dont have the energy right now
maybe later
j9
I know this is coming at the end of a really
interesting discussion – but I found it instructional
to see the emphasis/direction this debate took when
the original article was focused more on women in
general living without a partner for longer – so I
can’t help but add the voice of a white woman. (For
the record I just want to say that I agree with much
of what has been said re: issue for black women is
different than for white women in that there is a lack
of options/choice, that there are significant problems
with the prison industrial complex – and as Brian
later noted this goes even deeper into issues of jobs,
livable wages, education, etc.)
First, I found it interesting how often it was stated
that black women want to get married. No matter what
tone the article took - ALL women, no matter what
their race, talk about, worry about, and want to get
married.
What I think is shifting – and from the numerous women
who posted on this blog it sounds like it is shifting
for both black and white women – is the
timeline/expectations of when this will or should
happen. Which gets into my next point…
What I think is somewhat missing from this discussion
and also largely missing from the original article –
and Brian, why I also received this same article from
three of my white, feminist friends – is that the
statistic of 51% of women living single suggests a
quantitative way to understand a historical shift in
gender boundaries. It is similar to statistics about
the higher numbers of women (again, both black and
white) who are going to college and higher educational
institutions over their male counterparts, statistics
about the number of women who are breaking the glass
ceiling and taking on traditional ‘male jobs/roles’,
etc. Yet what is different about this statistic is
that it reveals a change in the choices open to many
women. Historically women needed marriage for
financial reasons. As the majority of societies were
organized around patriarchal systems – women needed
men both for cultural and financial reasons. The fact
that within the US more women are now able to
financially support themselves and that it is becoming
culturally acceptable to be single longer, takes away
the necessity for women to get married early. Feminist
movements helped to contribute to this by encouraging
non-traditional roles that often resulted in women
delaying marriage and having children so that they
could explore their own interests and find out who
they are – before getting into a binding relationship
that often shifts their focus onto taking care of a
husband and child. (Many of the postings by women on
the blog suggest this is the case).
I think what the majority of this blog discussion
emphasizes is the difference in the reasons for the
statistics of marriage for white and black women when
they hit a slightly later stage – the one where they
want to get married. White women do not deal with the
number problem, ie: their men locked up, fewer men at
their own education level, etc. And clearly this is
the emphasis of importance that black women place on
the article, whereas my white girl-friends alternate
between fear ‘see, I’m never going to get married!’
and glee ‘way to go feminist movements!’
i feel so understood! lol
seriously, i completely agree with that.
this is exactly what i was getting at.
it also speaks to the typical stuff we hear when black women try and adopt white feminist values at face value without articulating a movement based on their unique circumstances.
it's as interesting as cedric robinson's critique of DuBois, Richard Wright... and their love for eastern-style communism (Russia and China -- DuBois speaks of china as if it were the world's savior in his autobiography)...
...before realizing it's inability to totally address their unique relationship with the American experiment and the need for them to articulate a movement that did address their unique circumstances... (at least as a first step, even if different sub-movements might find common causes.)
Hmmm...the comments made are valid. I have to say it is very true instutitionalized racism has and still does drive and direct public policy in regards to people of color, especially blacks, but all this aside lets get back to basic, where is the love and respect in all of this between black women and black men who are out in soiety and not incarcerated? Many of us don't even speak to another as we pass each other on the street.
Has anyone noticed how we treat one another??? Upwardly mobile black men and women treat one another a great deal of the time as the enemy. Coporate sistahs and yes us regular ones too, look down on hard-working blue collar brothas or the ones still on the come up, cause he doesn't make enough or brothas on top of their game cannot be brothered with what they call ghetto bunnies and hood-rats, she is not cultured enough.
As for being single, it really is a choice. There are some really good brothas and sistahs out there, but are we prepared spiritually and emotionally to take a hold of the love we believe we deserve? When will we start seeing the unique beauty we each carry and celebrate that? Be damn the crap like he's too black or she's not light enough, they don't make enough money or didn't get a degree! I'm not sayin' we shouldn't seek the very best, but we all need to remember not one of us is perfect, but there is someone out there who is perfectly suited for each of us! Marriage is not a myth, it is one of the deepest committments two people can make to one another. Call me optimistic, but I know I am homerun and the man that recognizes this and celebrates this in me will be blessed with a strong eternal love from me, but until then I enjoy being single!!!
i can't pass on our lack of respect for each other entirely onto "the system"
but at the same time a brief review of history has some enlightening truths.
why don't we speak to eachother?
because we often have a lack of respect and genuine concern or love for eachother. lack of respect comes when you can't see yourself in someone. you see yourself as separate or different from them for whatever reason.
lack of concern for another human being i think is a symptom of a complete buying into of the american capitalistic mentality, either by coersion or voluntarily.
america has always had a "get yours" mentality. but black people had been sheltered from totally adopting it. what sheltered us? heck, what shelters anyone in america from becoming an "american extremist" lol?
community and family.
what's ironic is that although slavery often split up families, black people maintain the concept of community.
and while segregation prevented black people from doing some things, black people maintained family/community in the midst of a hyper-individualistic society.
therefore, the actual destruction of the black family and community simultaneously is a relatively NEW phenomena.
crack cocaine was like the black plague in black american history.
abolishion and desegregation opened doors that for the most part we continued to choose not to enter. black folk wanted to maintain their families and communities.
crack wiped out an entire generatoin.
i don't think we should ever forget that.
and it really tore down the walls of community and family that protect people in america from becoming "american extremists"
i think what our generation is, is sort of a manifestation of the first genertion who has bought into "americanism". and we bought into it mostly because we didn't have anyone there to tell us not to.
what it did was instigate the divide between the black bourgeoisie and the rest of black folk. those who were unaffected by "the plague" were catapulted to a new height, sort of how being normal (i.e. not getting sick) in the midst of an epidemic makes you exceptional. i think that group has gone on to continue getting what they can get and has pretty much been the beneficiaries of the majority of "black progress" in the last 60 years.
and those who were seriously affected (which was pretty much everyone else) were catapulted downwards.
once the family and community are eliminated as sources of instruction (on issues such as respect and love for humanity, etc.) other sources start to replace them... and of course they are insufficient in doing the job right.
as far as being single being a choice. it is always a choice.
but so is going into my cornerstore grocery section. i have choices. the rotten tomatoes, the rotten bananas, the rotten apples or the rotten oranges.
usually ima choose neither unless of course i am about to die from starvation. and so, yes i had a choice. but dang, it's kinda an unfair choice ain't it?
"All I'm saying is step outside of "your experience" and realize that even tho you might have it somewhat bad at an HBCU in terms of men choice, there are sisters who have it 10 times worse!"
not to bring up old stuff but i never got to come back to this and just wanted tosay that i didnt have it bad at howard. i happened to meet a few young men who i consider an important part of my development. .
so i do see what you're saying with regard to women for whom that number is 0. got that. i mainly objected to the idea that women at HBCU, howard in particular, had no idea what was really going on.
The end. Lol
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