Comments on The Liberator Magazine | Blog: Promises, expectations, discipline, love, lust + t...

"the woman has probably rendered the relationship ...

2008-05-12T19:58:28.133-04:00

"the woman has probably rendered the relationship over prior to stepping out. Actually articulating the break up is just the formality. Thus, she probably doesn't even consider herself cheating...how do we reconcile these two viewpoints?"

i guess i lean towards a non-reconciliation here...

at THIS point in my growth, i personally see my role as a man to provide a woman/women with those spiritual/emotional/physical needs of hers.

my point of challenge i guess in customizing my ideal relationship, would be to come to understanding that i am capable of fulfilling those needs without the expectation of monogamy.

and that does not mean that i want new women right now... but it means that i want our relationship to be based on me meeting your needs, not on some mental romantic construct.

on the flip side of the non-reconciliation, is me opening up the floor to criticism and making sure this woman (who Kamille is saying probably doesn't want to cheat if she's getting fulfilled) is voicing any and every dissatisfaction that occurs where her needs are not being met and that i step up and meet them or am invested enough to help make sure they are fulfilled rather then leaving her to fulfill them herself. and of course this fulfilling expectations must be in the bounds of what a secondary person can reasonable do for someone else. of course i am assuming a level of passion, self-motivation and independence to enable her to fulfill herself regardless of her relationship status.

wow...this discussion is CRUCIAL! Yup...much respe...

2008-05-11T14:59:03.470-04:00

wow...this discussion is CRUCIAL!
Yup...much respect to Achali and Kamille for all that you've expressed...
okay so here's what I'm thinking (and based on the abstract-Gemini-ness that I got going on, imma be listing!)

1. I think monogamy is an ideal to be aspired to (as is LOVE, RESPECT, etc). It is an action that really comes to fruition when practiced (atively...ehem..."I do" just ain't gonna DO IT!). So I think it requires a willingness to submit to it, for it is human nature to want variety (or even to fall victim to the fear of missing out). I think that the willingness to submit to monogamy (or the fear of doing so) manifests itself VERY differently for men and women. Women are usually groomed to be monogamous. It is our duty to "catch" a man and by GOD to "keep" him...by any MEANS necessary. THe failure to do so is CLEARLY indicative of our less-than-womanliness! (sarcastic but still true). Men tend to view monogamy as something they'll "get around to" and only when they're "married" or have "sown their wild oats/whole grains/whole foods/fresh-damn-fields"! lmao!
But they tend to move into grudgingly (as adults anyway, younger men tend to be all wide-eyed about love and MAD open...that is until they wife the skanky chic and then its pretty much over for them). Most adult men I know tend to look at monogamy as something that requires them to GIVE up all the potential women they could have (even though in reality, they're not getting close to 99% of these women). ITs just the IDEA that they're out there. More than that though, there is this male THING (what it IS I don't know) that SCREAMS for NEW _____! I've heard different men explain it different ways, but there's this thing about NEW and DIFFERENT that makes even the most loving and devoted man start itching for a new woman in their life. Even if its only a one-time situation. That's something that I feel needs to be addressed if we're ever going to move towards true monogamy. It will only remain an ideal if we don't address those urges (as Achali mentioned).

2. I feel that women and men have different expectations when it comes to LOVE and SEX. From what I've seen (and with Kamille's disclaimer in mind: because I can't speak for all), a lot of women want to be loved. Period. And if they feel loved, if they feel like their man is into them, loving them and appreciating them, they're less likely to feel insecure, to go snooping around "looking for stuff" or even to fathom the notion that he might actually be cheating. And sadly, some of these women refuse to take a step back and access their situations and accept the fact that he just might be cheating, for they are so smitten and so in love with the idea of being in love.
And THIS might seem a it backward but I think that that actually keeps the damn peace! Seriously. If what I know won't hurt me then make sure I don't EFFIN know!
Of course knowing encompasses me finding out because my dude told me, someone else told me, the side-heifer told me, I caught you, I've contracted an alphabetic disorder (any S.T.D.), etc. Problem is too many men slip up and then all hell breaks loose. But a lot of WOMEN might not be as worried or obsessed with men cheating if they didn't KNOW about it!
Too many men make it obvious and then it becomes a respect thing (like how DARE you throw that in my face, make me feel like I'm second or worthless or whatever).

3. I agree that on the FLIP men cannot handle the idea of a woman cheating on them! Some men can't even think about their ex-girlfriend dating someone new. Evn that is too much to bear. I think that's where the traditional roles come into play. Most men are groomed to be possesive and territorial when it comes to women. Women are the same way, but its almost a known fact that a woman will have to deal with her man stepping out at some point in her life. We're groomed for that too. And prepared to scrap over it too! yup!

4. Where I'm at with it?
Well...
I've come to realize that as Prince said it (and Bonnie Rait too but Prince SANG that ish) "I cant make you love me, if you don't!" Thats a HARD lesson to learn, but it MUST be done! lol!
I think some folks roll through their existence on some "I HAVE to be in a relationship" without searching for compatibility, a TRUE mate if you will. I'm SO over that!
Plus, I'm starting to realize that you have to GO through things with people. You can't just walk away because they did something you don't like, they're not your MIRROR image, etc.
That's the part of a relationship that people don't always elaborate on, but really makes a difference. Is a person being JUST like you most important? Or is coexisting with someone who has a different way of doing things but who also balances you the biggest testament to true love?
I'm thinking a little bit of both.
Compromise...oh, Compromise!
Humanity's greatest challenge but still an ideal that we should work towards.

Disclaimer The following comments may, at times,...

2008-05-11T06:30:23.231-04:00

*Disclaimer* The following comments may, at times, sound very crass, but I happen to be the sounding board for many of my friends, both male and female, so I'm just calling it like how I see/have seen it. I am also, by no means, claiming to speak for all women as many have a totally different set of circumstances based on upbringing, value systems, religion, worldviews and morals that would lead them to see things and act differently in most situations. I'm simply sharing my thoughts on the subject as posted, so of course, there are going to be MANY generalizations. Hopefully you can trust that I MEAN WELL and I'm simply trying to communicate my points and express myself to the best of my ability; plus build on points that achali already made.

Here are my general thoughts on love, trust, loyalty and monogamy, because I want to lay some foundation:

I happen to have a very different take on relationships as well. It's an aggregation of observances, experiences and both introspective and communal thought. I've always wondered how I arrived at this mindset, and I can trace it way back to when I was a youngun, and I had a "boyfriend." We weren't physically involved but he had been with a couple of girls before I hooked up with him, and I really wasn't trying to go there at the time.

One day, I was like "you know ... I know that that's something that you like to do ... but you know that I'm not going there, so if you're trying to get fulfilled that way, from somewhere else, by all means, go ahead. I promise, I won't care." I know ladies, stone me. Needless to say he looked at me like I was crazy, and he indulged in my offer a couple of times, that I know about. But eventually I think his desire to just build our relationship outweighed all that and we grew to the point that we just wanted to be monogamous anyway (the pimp in him got put to sleep lol). And honestly it wouldn't have made a difference either way. I had a firm grasp on what I knew he felt for me. I was secure in the extent of that. I knew right where we were at. I knew he had mad love for me. I was chillin! I didn't have that expectation. Perhaps I was crazy or didn't have any "self-respect," as many of my girlfriends said of me ... but i can say that it laid the foundation for how i think about relationships now. Ole boy and I were together for a LONG time and are great friends to this day.

I've also had relationships where I expected monogamy, knowing in the back of my mind, that exclusivity in and of itself wasn't what i really wanted ... it was simply honesty, friendship, laughter and companionship, no matter what form it came in. Pretty much my only expectation, or preference rather, is that the times when you're with me, you're with me and making me feel like I'm the only one in your world. And then when we part ways, we part ways. Holler.

So I agree that relationships have to be customized. I'd add that most times, what we want and need can be achieved outside of the scope of the word "relationship," but I see that achali is trying to construct this understanding within a relationship environment. These days, I know that I am attracted to a lot of different things in a lot of different people, so in order to save souls, I refrain from being in "relationships" with people so that they won't be "subjected" to my very fluid world view. I will concede that the state of health relations these days has also complicated things (STDs, airborne ish, skin eating diseases), such that I'm paranoid that you're trying to take me out of this life if you're even BREATHING on me ... so let's just say that I keep my distance, for the most part, and live vicariously through my friends and family, until I'm ready to officially turn theory into practice.

Now on to the categories. (I'm trying to stick to your format, achali.)

People who have knowingly had sex with another person’s mate:
Single women who have knowingly had sex with another woman's man.

First, I want to build on your rundown of why women do this. I know plenty in real life of all colors, types and motivations: bad-minded, well-meaning, insecure, indifferent, spiteful, horny, inebriated, lonely, ambitious, whatever. In general, being a" homewrecker" is looked down upon in sister circles so on the surface, many want to try (at least publicly) and avoid being labeled as such. I say publicly because I don't think it would be such an issue if no one else knew. That's why a lot of times, girls sometimes withhold this information even from their sisterfriends for fear of judgment. The only time they might tell is if they think the guy might "really love her" and then it's relayed as just a tragic thing where they are "really supposed to be together but he's just 'stuck' in a relationship with this girl he really doesn't want to be with anyway and one day he'll see the light." And then the whole respect/sisterhood solidarity factor is out the door. sister friends might even start encouraging her: 'go get your man, girl!'

I think, in general, we have a long way to go before we get to the respect (minus) fear of karma and insecurity formula. But I don't think that it's a static state. I think respect has a large 'empathy' component where you at some point in time have to be able (and willing) to put yourself in the other person's shoes, which is why i don't necessarily mind it as a starting point for the pledge.

Oh yes, there's also the situation where a girl might be knowingly sleeping with another woman's man because she is just trying to have a "no strings attached" arrangement where she is simply getting her sexual needs met and it's easier when the man has a woman, so she doesn't have to worry about him trying to cuff her or wife her (<-- yes, there are some women who aren't trying to be "wifed" at every waking moment. lol). So she rationalizes in her head that she's just getting her needs met, and meeting his simultaneously. She has no expectations of anything long term or serious coming out of it, therefore she doesn't really see herself as being a "homewrecker" or "denying the other woman's right to happiness." She doesn't even put herself into that equation.

A lot of times however, her perceived "detachment" is appealing to the man (who can't calculate in his mind why a woman wouldn't want him, ALL of him) and he ends up liking her more and that's where the trouble starts. Beware of lust manifested. So those are a just a couple more combinations. Why women don't do this, is largely a result of peer influence, fear of karma (like you say), and a general desire NOT to actively aid and abet the destruction of a family unit. Increasingly, as we continue to have these conversations, and reform behaviors in other arenas (like in our day to day interactions in the workplace, at school or just out on the street) the restraint will be out of respect.

Single men who have knowingly had sex with another man's woman.
I know plenty in real life of all colors, types and motivations. The primary motivation I've seen is that they want a no-strings attached arrangement as well. Quite contrary to your observations though, I've seen it being played out as an actual assertion of a man's perceived limitless territories ('eff yo man. He ain't here is he?' or 'what's your man got to do with me?' or my favorite, "will your man be mad if i called you?" ahahaha). Personally, I've witnessed men -- good brothas included -- at least TRY to push the boundaries. And then when you get all Mint Condition on them, you're like "nawh man, I got a man and you know that ain't right, what kind of woman would i be? *giggle, giggle, giggle*" THEN they're like, "I respect that ma, wish I had a woman who was down for me like that, tell him he's a lucky man, he better be treating you right ... blah, blah, blah." Okay, I'm getting WAY too technical, but it's for the purposes of demonstration. I'm saying the respect sometimes is a PROCESS. Much like in the woman's situation, where the respect comes as a derivative of empathy -- putting yourself in the other woman's shoes. I think you're on point about why they don't though.

Relationship people who have sex outside their relationship:

achali: Can a man cheat on his women and still love her? Yes. Can a man cheat on his woman and not hurt that woman? Highly unlikely. So, for men I believe the reason cheating is not the enemy of love is because they can cheat and still love their woman strongly.

I think that this is the line of demarcation, because women in a relationship see and utilize sex differently. Can a woman cheat on her man and still love him? Absolutely. Can a woman cheat on her man and not hurt that man? Highly unlikely, because that's like the ultimate assault on his manhood -- and we know it. Which leads me to my next point. If she actually does step outside of the relationship for SEX, you can pretty much consider yourself a goner. ESPECIALLY if that outside "experience" was ... ahem ... pleasing to her.

Allow me to explain.

You'll rarely find a situation with women who step out for sex even though she's getting 'everything' fulfilled at home. Because unlike a man who is getting fulfilled at home yet still steps out, a woman will NOT step out for SEX if she is getting fulfilled at home. A woman is far more literal and direct. A woman will step out for sex if she is not getting fulfilled sexually at home. And the point where she determines that she is not being fulfilled sexually at home comes AFTER she has determined in her mind that she is also not being fulfilled emotionally and intellectually and spiritually, etc. and has endured those things without stepping out. Since emotional, intellectual and spiritual fulfillment and sexual fulfillment are inextricably intertwined with most women, you can see her sexual stepping out as a testament to her emotional, intellectual and spiritual death in relation to you.

Sounds harsh, but at least you can see why so many girls trip when the man does this if there was an expectation of monogamy. Because we mistakenly think that we think the same way and apply the same value to sex, when we really don't. This needs to be discussed and hashed out. I think single men and single women have similar views on sex. But somehow, it changes for women once they're in a relationship.

Anyway, in my experience, I have YET to see a relationship continue to work long term where the woman stepped out. For one reason, in comparison to women, men are FAR LESS forgiving of an adulterous woman in most cases (because of bruised egos and fear of inadequacies). Go figure?! And two because the woman has probably rendered the relationship over prior to stepping out. Actually articulating the break up is just the formality. Thus, she probably doesn't even consider herself cheating ("girl, we were over and done with about 6 months ago ..."). So how do we reconcile these two viewpoints?

Anyway, that's all I could muster up for right now ...

Comments on The Liberator Magazine | Blog: Promises, expectations, discipline, love, lust + t...

"the woman has probably rendered the relationship ...

wow...this discussion is CRUCIAL! Yup...much respe...

*Disclaimer* The following comments may, at times,...

Disclaimer The following comments may, at times,...